Troy Industries responds to criticism of their retention of Horiuchi’s partner… again.

Not exactly in a formal press release, but instead on an internet forum.

It would seem that the owner, Steve Troy, is coming clean from earlier claims that Troy Assymetric was a completely separate company.  He says Troy Assymetric’s training is focused on bombs, not guns and that TA isn’t training “jack booted thugs”.  He closes by saying he can find no reason to discharge Dale Monroe.  Here’s the statement he put out last night around 8:54pm.  The post, as of 10a.m. this morning, had nearly 1000 replies and had been read almost 30,000 times.

From AR15.com:

I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to members of this forum. Troy Asymmetric, part of the “World of Troy,” is a business entity with a director who until this past week, held exclusive hiring authority. I am its owner, it bears my name and as we have witnessed in recent days, effects public opinion of all Troy divisions. Earlier this week, I terminated an instructor who did not support the Second Amendment as ardently as I and members of the community do.

Troy Asymmetric provides training to military and law enforcement personnel. If you spend 5 seconds on the website you’ll see a graphical depiction of a bomb explosion – the primary focus of the company. Take a moment to read the course list and you’ll note a common theme: training pertaining to explosions, bomb threats, post-blast crime scenes, incident command and crisis management. Instructors’ primary areas of expertise lie in the “bomb world,” with EOD experience, critical incident response, and tactical decision making. Some posters on the forum have said we only train “Jack Booted Thugs” and there is a secret agenda. These same posters conveniently ignore Troy Prepared: www.troyprepared.com. Troy Asymmetric to this date has offered no firearms training for Gov’t and LE, but in comparison, Troy Prepared has always offered firearms training to qualified civilians. From a factual, non-emotional context, it is impossible to draw the conclusion that we somehow do not support the Second Amendment and are only training “secret army”.

On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer. He was fortunate not to have to take a life at this engagement. Special Agent Horiuchi made the regrettable shot, a mistake for which he will never be forgiven. Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled “Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Dale has not committed a criminal act, he answered all questions honestly, he did not cover anything up and he did not shoot anyone at Ruby Ridge. Dale was asked to join TA for his critical incident management expertise. Dale was never slated by TA for firearms instruction.

We all know from our biggest failures come the greatest lessons in life. Providing training that is relevant with experienced, qualified instructors can prevent a tragedy like Ruby Ridge. Dale will be able to deliver this powerful message and lessons learned in crisis management and incident command. I am driven and passionate about bringing effective change through pertinent training and speakers that have lived through these nightmares. Many times I have seen posts in forums that state “if you weren’t there then SDASTFU”, with that same school of thought, there is no one better than Dale to speak about tragedies like Ruby Ridge.

I have been a longtime and outspoken supporter of the Second Amendment. I always choose to do what’s right, even if my stance goes against others opinion. I will not throw this man to the wolves as he has demonstrated throughout his life high integrity and honor. I know most of those who would disagree are using this forum to voice your anger towards the United States Government. In some cases that anger is justified. The Ruby Ridge tragedy and the loss of life there make no bigger example of abuse of power and Government gone wrong. However, I disagree with your personal attacks on my family and company as we are not the Government and we are not training “Jack Booted Thugs”. I am a patriot and I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States, all of it. Those who have taken that same oath recognize the importance of keeping it. Thank you. -Steve Troy

The entire hullabaloo with Troy Industries started with a post here at Guns Save Life.  We caught wind that Troy Industries, through their training arm Troy Assymetric, had hired the rabidly anti-gun former police chief of Chicago nicknamed “J-Fled” for his running away from the sound of gun fire near a press conference.  Through a series of less than clear and concise statements (some would say lies), Troy dug themselves deeper and deeper into a hole which is now turning into a well.

First they claimed they had never hired Jody Weis, despite a webpage proudly proclaiming Weis’ as a new addition to their training cadre.

Troy’s response was sent back to Guns Save Life from Allyson Ranelli via email.  It was a form email sent to everyone who inquired about the hiring of J-Fled.

Troy Industries is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. In recent months, we have been more vocal about our beliefs, choosing to align ourselves with companies and individuals who are like-minded.

In response to the reaction of our customer base, Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.

We value the thoughts and concerns of our loyal customers. Troy Industries and its affiliated companies are strong supporters of the Second Amendment and will continue to promote this right through our products, statements, actions and affiliations.

Thank you

Allyson Ranelli
Troy Industries, Inc
151A Capital Dr
West Springfield, MA 01089
413-788-4288 x116 Office
413-788-4610 Fax
aranelli@troyind.com

www.troyind.com

“Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors,” Troy wrote through Ms. Ranelli.

But wait.  What about this?

Sure looks like he was already hired and had joined their staff.

Then intrepid GSL readers forwarded us information that Dale Monroe was another new Troy Assymetrical instructor.

Who was Dale Monroe?

Dale was Lon Horiuchi’s partner at Ruby Ridge.

We found a newspaper article written for the LA Times that quoted Dale Monroe saying he too would have taken the shot that subsequently killed Vicky Weaver but that his partner, Horiuchi, fired first.

Ruby Ridge Snipers Defend Their Actions in Front of Senate Panel

(LA Times via The Tech – Sept. 15, 1995) – FBI snipers Thursday defended their actions at the 1992 Ruby Ridge siege where a white separatist’s wife was killed, contending that danger to an FBI observation helicopter from armed men outside the separatist’s cabin justified opening fire.

But skeptical senators questioned whether permissive shoot-to-kill orders and exaggerated information about the threat of Randy Weaver led to an overreaction.

Dale R. Monroe, the partner of FBI hostage rescue team leader Lon Horiuchi – who fired the fatal shot – said he was preparing to fire but didn’t only because Horiuchi fired first.

Troy Industries shot back identifying a point in a C-Span video where it was a third sniper who said he would have fired, not Monroe.  However, when the entire video was watched, Monroe said that he too would have fired except he didn’t have a good shot.  Monroe also went on to testify that both shots Horiuchi took were justified.  Courts later ruled that not to be the case.

From the Troy Industries Facebook page.

We thank everyone for their opinions on Dale Monroe. We are still reviewing Mr. Monroe’s relationship with Troy Asymmetric and are looking in to the claims that are being made online.

We have reviewed the 1995 Ruby Ridge Congressional testimony and found at 1:42:35 of the taping, it is indeed Ed Wenger who says he would have shot, had Special Agent Horiuchi not shot first. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/67153-1

The attribution of the statement on gunssavelife.com to Mr. Monroe is incorrect. After reviewing the testimony, we are confident that you, too, will find that it is indeed Wenger that made the statement, not Monroe.

Monroe was an FBI HRT member assigned a mission which turned tragic. We are saddened by the events at Ruby Ridge and recognize the significance of the tragedy. If you’ve never worn a uniform, you might not understand why Monroe was in the situation he was in, but if you have worn a uniform, you know how it is to follow orders in a fluid situation. …

Our response:

At 1:03:30 in the video at the link, Dale Monroe believes both shots were justified.

At 2:16:50 in the video, Dale Monroe says he would have taken the shot if he would had the ability to take an accurate shot at the time.

Later, yesterday morning, a man with the handle “GoatBoy”, one of the primaries at AR15.com, posted his summary of a conversation he had with Steve Troy, the owner of Troy Industries.  It was telling, to say the least.

I spoke with Troy reps this morning about this situation and got more clarity on where things are.

Troy Industries is a completely isolated company from Troy Asymmetric. Different leadership, different contacts, as far as I was told autonomous from each other. Yes, they can exert pressure on each other and I would guess they could cut ties from each other if needed. I’m assuming that the quick response last week proved that there is a sufficient amount of pressure on the relationship afforded to each other. This doesn’t mean that Steve or anyone else inside Troy Ind can make business decisions for the Asymmetric business from what I was told.

So at this time Troy Ind is unhappy with the current situation, not unlike people here, and that they are waiting for it to shake out at higher levels. Before I ever brought up that this community would distance itself from a company acting in this manner, they made it exceedingly clear that Troy Industries has nothing to do with this and it’s a black eye on them. It was made clear that this mess has impacted their employee moral.

Everyone here has to keep in mind that companies often forge relationships like this to benefit both entities and that corporate structures can be confusing, regardless of naming. It’s a potential nightmare when a situation like this one occurs and you are tied by name and very little else. The employees of Troy Ind I have had the pleasure of meeting are shooters and patriots cut from the same cloth as us and it’s very clear to see this trouble them too. I’m not sure what to expect next, or when we will hear more, but I do feel they are making efforts internally and something more will happen.

I am a fan of voting with your dollars and voicing your opinion. I know people at Troy can’t take the time to talk to everyone as they did with me, so all I ask is that you keep the above in mind when forming your decisions. Also remember we are not privy to all the inside information on what is taking place. If I feel Troy Industries has misled us on this and is responsible for the hiring, we will take appropriate action, but I have faith in Steve and everyone there to do what is right. They have proven time and time again that they will do what is right and they have never given us a reason to doubt them.

[Emphasis added.]

A little more internet sleuthing found Mr. Troy was lying about the relationship between the companies, as “GoatBoy” recollected the conversation.

Folks looked up their corporate registrations.

[Edit:  Apologies to “Undefined” for quoting his research on Troy Industries without citation.  It was a little rushed this morning, but we should have taken time to credit him.]

Annual Report – Troy Industries
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSearchRedirector.aspx?Action=PDF&Path=CORP_DRIVE1/2013/0228/000000000/1050/201322621700_1.pdf

Annual Report – Troy Asymmetric
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSearchRedirector.aspx?Action=PDF&Path=CORP_DRIVE1/2013/0228/000000000/1186/201322638870_1.pdf

Certificate of Organization – Troy Defense
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSearchRedirector.aspx?Action=PDF&Path=CORP_DRIVE1/2012/0208/000000000/1474/201268941540_1.pdf

Certificate of Organization – Troy Asymmetric
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSearchRedirector.aspx?Action=PDF&Path=CORP_DRIVE1/2012/0208/000000000/1564/201268955600_1.pdf

At this point in time, we post this to give Mr. Troy, a retired Massachusetts State Trooper a final (to this point, anyway) rebuttal to our initial concerns about Dale Monroe.

We respect that he seems to be coming clean with regard to ownership of the various companies in the Troy family, yet we disagree on the merits of retaining Mr. Monroe.

We didn’t get the story wrong.  We reported the story and cited our sources.  We never wrote that Monroe would have willfully shot Mrs. Weaver, we repeated wrote though that he would have taken the same shot that resulted in Vicky Weaver’s death.  Who knows who might have been killed if Monroe had taken the shot.  Perhaps Vicky Weaver AND the baby would have been killed, or perhaps nobody.

While we certainly don’t believe Mr. Monroe committed a criminal act at Ruby Ridge, we do believe it is clear that Mr. Monroe has repeatedly and willfully supported the violation of due process and rule of law, making him unfit as a law enforcement officer and undesirable as a potential employee.

Contrary to what Mr. Troy seems to suggest in his Facebook post, the rules regarding the judicious use of deadly force are not “fluid”, they are set in the rule of law. Even for law enforcement professionals.  Even for Dale Monroe.

Final thought.  We found this post at Arfcom:

As written by pavlovwolf

Guys, I’m going to be honest here, and make a suggestion.

In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products.

If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn’t make a dime on the product since it’s used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases.

If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can’t spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount.

Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy.

Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn’t buy Troy.

I think I’ve got some Troy Battle Mags for sale.